"Coming home, the fight didn't stop. You know, now, I'm shunned with a felony. I have three kids. I can't make a legal wage, you know, so it's like, right here at home where I'm supposed to be protected, my human rights is supposed to be, you know, valued. Now they're diminished. And here at All Square, it's like, replenishing them, you know. Giving me a platform to be who I was in the first place. Giving me a platform to have my rights that's been taken away at the start of this, given back. Letting me know that I am somebody. And that one person being helped can help a lot of people."

That's Aretina Williams, the manager at the All Square Restaurant, part a Minnesota nonprofit dedicated to restoring the rights of those impacted by mass incarceration. For people like Aretina, whose felony record limits their opportunities, All Square offers a chance to reclaim dignity and build a new future.

In this episode of Human Rights Chat, New Tactics intern, Grace McDonough, sat down with Aretina and other key staff at All Square. Their mission is clear: to heal the wounds inflicted by the criminal legal system and to challenge the way society views and uses criminal records. Their work is rooted in a unique approach that includes a craft grilled cheese restaurant, a fellowship program, and a legal initiative called The Legal Revolution. Each of these components works together to create opportunities for those who have been impacted by mass incarceration, challenging societal norms and creating pathways to freedom.

You’re listening to the Human Rights Chat podcast by New Tactics in Human Rights. New Tactics is a program of the Center for Victims of Torture. I’m Melissa McNeilly, and I’ll be your host for this episode. Together with our special guests, we’ll explore successful tactics and strategies that are driving real human rights change.

Let's begin by hearing more from Emily Hunt Turner, the founder and CEO of All Square. Emily is a civil rights attorney who spent five years in the Department of Housing and Urban Development working on housing discrimination and barriers to housing for those impacted by mass incarceration..Emily talks about what brought her into this incredible work…

Emily: I think All Square was founded as part of a sequence of several things that transpired in my life. One, it was being in Atlanta and seeing the gentrification that happened there with the ‘96 Olympics. Criminal records in particular, how that played out. Where folks who had records, how they were mishandled, I would argue, during that time. Understanding again in Louisiana and New Orleans, mass incarceration, who it’s affecting, The New Jim Crow, reading that book [The New Jim Crow: Mass incarceration in the age of colorblindness by Michelle Alexander]. And not just I think reading it and Michelle’s proposition that slavery has been reinvented through the prison system, but then kind of seeing that. Like the anecdotal personal experience of seeing that as an attorney and how the prison system is playing out, was massively important. 

And then again working as a HUD [Housing and Urban Development] attorney, I think it was a very different side of like, not only do we know that folks across the country have criminal records. They’ve been impacted by mass incarceration. Many of those folks who have been impacted should have never been impacted. But I think that the intersection of.. you know… having a record and trying to find housing and seeing in the public sector, that using someone’s record to prevent them moving forward was an extremely common thing. So what really led I think to the founding of All Square was just this cumulative experience of like knowing and loving so many incredible human beings, Bruce Riley, Calvin Duncan, two of the founding board members of All Square, Herman Wallace, Albert Woodfox…folks who just had experienced incarceration in ways I couldn’t imagine. And helped me understand, at least how I could try to contribute to healing some of the things that have happened.

Frankly, speaking to predominantly white folks in general about like what's, what's transpiring and what's, what it's all rooted in. So all of that kind of, I think, kind of was a 10 to 15 years of just holding a lot, witnessing a lot trying to understand my role, if any, and being a part of healing. And what ultimately was a tipping point for All Square was, I left New Orleans and moved to Minnesota because I met my, now, wife. And I worked on a case here where a local black family had been not only evicted from their current housing but disallowed to move into separate housing because the housing provider had ran a criminal background check, and had found a criminal background. And it's a long story, all the sort of I would argue illegal things that happened during that complaint and the findings that came from that complaint. But the thing that was legal was using a criminal record to exclude him and his wife from housing. And the craziest part about it was that the criminal record was 41 years old. 

So I had known it was an issue; I had seen it was an issue. But working as an attorney and understanding that it was lawful for a housing provider to use a criminal record that was 41 years old? Learning from folks who've reentered and come home that like, you know, 24 hours is even a lot to wait, but 41 years, it's crazy and perpetually problematic and often very racist. So that's what led to All Square was, how do we be part of the solution? Even if it's a tiny part of a broad ecosystem. How can we sort of make a statement about what's happening, try to be a part of shifting that, and how it came into the world, as a grilled cheese restaurant is again, not a really linear thing. I think it was more than name more than anything, I knew that in talking to Calvin and Bruce, like, I really want to start something here in Minnesota. It has to say something about the fact that records are preventing people from moving forward. And that's where the name All Square came from. And the grilled cheese restaurant was like a way into, like, what could we do to not only say that this is not okay, but to put our money where our mouth was to practice what we preach. And that was to only hire folks who've been impacted, as opposed to excluding folks who've been impacted. 

So I'm wondering if you can talk about the situation of All Square within the Twin Cities, what does it mean for All Square to operate within this community? 

Yeah, I mean, I think every day we're trying to understand our role in the community. I think there's just so much incredible work happening here. And I think, of course, right when All Square was founded was 2016, the landscape of Minneapolis, I would argue, is similar to what it is now from what I know. In my experience. But I also know that, you know, everything that's transpired here in the city, particularly in the last four years, puts us on the map in a really different way. And I guess my hope is that All Square can be a part of many spokes in an incredible wheel of like, humans who are doing great work, putting Minneapolis, St. Paul on the map for something really beautiful. And making sure that that gets showcased in the same way that whatever social issues that we hold, are also being talked about and showcased sometimes in very, I would argue, problematic ways. So...

Talk to me about the mission of All Square, to heal the harms created by the legal system. What harms are we talking about?

First and foremost, I think as it relates to All Square, is the perpetual exclusion of folks who have records, right. I think one, harms done by the legal system, stem from decades of, you know, disparate sentencing, right. Folks getting sentenced differently for the same crime, unlawful arrest policies, stop and frisk policies. I mean the legal system has sadly been driven by racialized practices. And I think, again, Michelle Alexander's book, and so many other incredible leaders who've worked on this, I think have showcased that. I would argue most of America can agree that the legal system has been extremely flawed for many years. The motivations behind how it's working are very known. You know, I think it's a matter of, how do we acknowledge that and also try to be part of doing something different? Be part of using the legal system in a way that can honor community, that can honor the voices who have been most impacted by it.

And also, right, I think, for us, hopefully, just the name, All Square, being part of creating a landscape where folks can come home and move forward with their lives. I mean, there is something that's so inherently important about all of us who have made mistakes, all of us who have missteps. But also, I think something that we talk about often is, you know, second chances and reparations, right? Because, again, the legal system has really gotten it wrong so often. So I think, to make space for both of those situations, right for all of us who have made missteps, to talk about those missteps, and own them if we need to. But also to really acknowledge that there are systems at play that have led to a lot of those missteps. And we as a community can come together to allow space for both of those things to be talked about. And hopefully, that's part of what All Square does is part of healing is creating space. For us to have some of those shared values, and transcend I think, what is happening often at the ground level, which is, you know, understandably, people not coming together when there's diverging perspectives, trying to create a space where we can all come together and keep it real. But also keep it focused on like, what do we got to do to come together and heal a little bit? So…

Aretina: So with my whole interaction with the legal system here, it was my first time around. You know, and a lot like a lot of people, if you're not in a situation, you don't look at the situation like everybody else does. You know, and so I was one of those people, in a situation fighting this legal case, thinking, you know, my justice system has me because it's working for me. But then I found myself fighting against the system that's supposed to be justifiable for me.

Coming home, the fight didn't stop. You know, now, I'm shunned with a felony. I have three kids. I can't make a legal wage, you know, so it's like, right here at home where I'm supposed to be protected, my human rights is supposed to be, you know, valued. Now they're diminished.

And here at All Square, it's like, replenishing them, you know. Giving me a platform to be who I was in the first place. Giving me a platform to have my rights that's been taken away at the start of this, given back. Letting me know that I am somebody. And that one person being helped can help a lot of people.

A lot of people don't act because they're not in that position. You know, and it's like, one day, it's his story, today it’s my story. But tomorrow can be your story. And you won't talk about it. You don't know how to get out of it. You don't know terminology. You don't know how to defend yourself or advocate for yourself, because you didn't pay attention, because you weren't in that position, you know. And so that's why I tell everybody, we got to pay attention. We have to vote.

And the educational piece that the Legal Revolution gives out, the educational piece that comes from the prison to law pipeline, is just all around the work that we're doing here. It doesn't just hit the people that's here. It helps in a broader range of things.

Emily: You know, systems change when people change. And I think that's one of the driving forces of All Square is how can we be a part of people changing? And sometimes that is uncomfortable. Because a lot of the folks that we would argue and hope can change and evolve, don't always align with everything in the criminal justice or human rights space. But I do think there is an opportunity and something that I think at least for me, it's really clear is in order to change some of these systems, it will take a very wide spectrum of humanity coming together to say, this is not okay. And we have made a social compact with one another irrespective of divergences or irrespective of views that might not align. We have a social contract to one another that that says like, this is like this is perpetual punishment, and systems that are actively flawed and often racialized, it’s not okay. So I think that that's part of for us at the end of the day, of course, we're anchored in criminal records, how they're used and viewed. We're anchored in mass incarceration. We're anchored in the legal system and how it plays out. And I think at the highest level, we're anchored in a commitment to humanity, and a commitment to making sure that, you know, we're all able to operate in this world with a sense of freedom, and love, and, you know, like core dignity. So I think that that hopefully is a piece of our DNA, is coming together to say, like, we might not all be aligned on everything, but at the end of the day, surely, we can align on the fact that this system has been very flawed. And there's ways we can contribute to making it work for everybody.

Human beings fuck up. That's just like, that's, that is part of being human. You know, this ideal of perfectionism is very rooted in white ways of thinking and whiteness in general. And at the end of the day, humans are messy. And I think to some degree, that needs to be noted, right. Like we all have, but I think running parallel to that is, why have I made serious missteps, including legal missteps. I've been in possession. I should have DUIs that I don't.

But why don't I, right? So I think there's also something really important not just in focusing on making sure those who have “on paper” messed up, are able to move forward. But also questioning and interrogating our landscape as to why don't all of us have a criminal record, right? Because we all probably could. And I know Emily Baxter's book We Are All Criminals focuses on that a lot. But it is, that is an inherent truth, right? I mean, there are, those are the stories I think that also those of us who don't have criminal records, who probably could or should, also voicing that and talking about that in interrogating, why don't we? And if we did it, would it affect us in the same way? And until we can start to have those conversations, and at times when appropriate, centered on that, too, right. Which is like, let's examine that piece of what's happening, not just focusing on folks who, who might have felonies, but those of us who don't, why don't we?

So anyway, I think it's, it does feel like so much of the way that we are anchored and so much of social media, and it's just, it's very shame heavy. At least, that's something I hope we're really committed to doing. And I always feel in the presence of everyone on this team is, shame just does not have a space here.

Emily’s reflections on shame and the inherent flaws in our perceptions of criminality bring to light a powerful truth: many of us could have a criminal record, but for various reasons, we don’t. This disparity calls into question the broader societal and systemic biases that determine who bears the burden of a criminal record and who doesn’t.

This leads us to the heart of All Square’s mission—the significance of their name. The idea of being “All Square” isn’t just a catchy title; it’s a radical reimagining of what justice should look like. All Square envisions a world where those who have paid their debts to society are truly unencumbered by their criminal records—socially, economically, and politically. It’s about ensuring that once someone has served their sentence, they are genuinely “all square” with society, free to move forward without the lingering stigma of their past.

Let’s hear more about this concept from Emily and the team, as they discuss why the name All Square is so integral to their work and their vision for the future.

Emily: The name is so important. It's also really sad that we have to have that be our name. And I don't say that from the space of being a sort of “Debbie Downer” or a pessimist. But the reality is, and I think something I really try to perpetually remember is, I do think a lot of folks don't quite understand, folks who don't have records, just how hard it is to move forward once you have that record. And I think that that was in part of All Squares founding was how do we become a part of like making sure that that's a known? And I will say, you know, the Kickstarter to get All Square off the ground, there were a lot of rural North Dakotans that helped fund, that's where I'm from, that helped fund it, right. And again, they might not have aligned on all the copy and the Kickstarter campaign, and every one of the values that we put forward. But there was an absolute alignment in that when folks come home and have done their time, how are they not allowed to move forward? Like that's just a basic core human right.

And so I will say that the name is vitally important, because even if you can't get in alignment with every other thing that we're talking about, can we agree on that as a core concept, that, if we have this thing called the carceral system, if folks come home from that, and are not allowed to move forward, they can't, like what, what are we creating? And talk about a public safety issue? I would argue that is the biggest public safety issue of our time, is folks come home, and they are, they are blocked from everything. Like that, that is public safety. That's a massive public safety issue that we're perpetuating as a society and we have to get it together. So I think that, yeah, the name I hope is part of like normalizing something that frankly, should be known. And something that we promise is, is a norm, right? It's like, hey, get your shit together while you're in prison, because then when you come home, you can move forward. What kind of false promise is it? That like, just kidding, you come home and you can't. That's a problem. And so many of the folks who don't have records are the ones perpetuating that problem. So it's on us to try to be part of changing it.

Aretina's story underscores the immense barriers that individuals face during reentry, particularly when it comes to basic needs like housing. Despite following society's prescribed path—going to college, staying out of trouble—she found that one mistake left her marked with a "scarlet letter" that seemed impossible to erase. Even after serving her time, she was far from being "All Square." The system's failure to truly reintegrate people after incarceration is clear in her struggle to provide for her children, despite her education and hard work. Illustrating the harsh reality that even after paying their debts to society, justice-impacted individuals often remain trapped by their past, unable to move forward.

Aretina: Before I even went to prison, I felt like if you did everything that you needed to do in life, you know, stay out of trouble and go to college, and you know, the societal norms. Do everything that you need to do, you would be All Square, right? But that's not the case. When you come home like you, you go, and you serve your time, and you should come home, and that should be what it is. Because that's what the judge said. This is the time you serve for the action that you did. But you come home, and you're not done serving your time. When I came home, with three children, I still have to raise them and provide for them. But now I'm with this felony. I’m with this scarlet letter on my chest, saying that you're not All Square. You did something that's about to follow you. You know I can't make a livable wage. I can't pursue my goals and my dreams that I had beforehand. Mind you, I'd never ever been in a prison, never gotten in trouble before this crime. You know, so me as an individual thinking, and having the misperception of the justice system before me actually being in that situation coming home. You know, it was that much harder to even realize that, here I am in a position where I can't feed my kids, no matter how hard I work. I was working full time, over time, killing myself just to make enough money to pay my mortgage because I had to, I didn't have a choice. There was no step above the certain amount that I can make. There's jobs that wouldn't even look at me twice because I was a felon. But I did everything right. I went to school. I went to college. I have associate degrees. I have bachelor's degrees. So why am I not indemnified once I've served my time? I should be All Square. But I'm not.

So when I stumbled upon All Square, you know, it's like, how could this be a place where I can come and just be me? You know, because I've run into so many doors that's been closed. I've been in so many situations that I know, at this point, I'm just going to work really hard til the day that I die because now I'm in the situation. The system got me, and that's what it is. You'll never be let go. That's how I'm taking it now. Because I did everything right. Everything right. And I'm trying to progress. I'm trying to move forward and be a productive citizen out in this society. Leave my past behind me and not let it define me. But it's defining me. It's breaking me, it's taken over me.

Coming here, not only did they provide a livable wage, so I can be stress free and provide food for my kids and provide a roof over their heads. But I got offered therapy. This therapy company that we partner with, they provide counseling. They're there for the people. You know, they want to provide a space where you get to know yourself and get confidence, get motivated, get supported, in who you are. Because in one spontaneous moment in your life, how can you be defined for your whole life, for the rest of your life, by that moment?

Here at All Square, no. It's like a 360. It’s four corners for me. First corner, that's what landed me there. Second corner, you know, I did my time. Third corner, I should be out living my life. Fourth Corner, I'm at All Square, progressing. Moving forward. Getting supported. Getting motivated. Getting confidence built, getting opportunities that I would never been afforded to, if I've never found All Square. Because I wouldn't be stuck in the justice system that keeps revolving with nobody listening, nobody looking and nobody experiencing that. If we're talking to each other, and we're talking to somebody that don't relate to us, how can you advocate and speak for us? You can't.

You know, and for that, me, being a single mother, raising three kids, knowing that they, their decisions and their lives, is what's going to be affected next… I'm all about spreading the word. All about healing the harms. All about educating. All about promoting people to get out there and vote. All Square provides a platform for people to just be great. Not change people. Not to push you to where you need to be. Not to give you all these things that you feel that you should have. But to hold you accountable, to motivate you, to provide confidence, to provide support, to provide a safe space for you to be free to be who you are. And this is why I love All Square because, well now that I'm here, I'm All Square no matter who say what, because I feel it. I've been given that opportunity. I have confidence. So regardless of everybody in the world looking at that paper that the judge said that I was. This egregious criminal creature or whatnot. When they come in All Square, they see me. When they get to hear me speak, they hear me. When I leave them with a feeling, they feel me. That makes me All Square.

Emily: Damn. We can just stop there.

Aretina: I didn't want to speak. I didn't want to speak. I get so emotional when I speak about All Square because it's a testament of my life. Because it speaks broadly on the people, like I said, Before I was in my criminal situation, I had a different view on the justice system. Until I was in that seat where I was fighting for my life against this justice system that was made to protect me, I'm fighting against it.

And coming home, in a society where everybody that looks like me, and breathes like me in a situation just like me, when we're all fighting to get out and nobody's listening. And now I have a foundation. Not only are they listening, that they hear me, but they are reaching out to people and other organizations. And work is being done, and I see it. So yeah, I get really emotional when I talk about All Square.

Emily: You know, we're all in our spaces and networks. And I think we all have our, we all have our responsibilities in this work. We all have spaces where we belong and where we don't. I certainly am getting better at understanding where I don't, and understanding where I do. And seeing some of the spaces and places where I might be a conduit to understanding the issue in a way that for whatever reason might not exist outside of that. On the flip side of that, watching folks like Tina speak to others who are in or have been in similar situations, it doesn't matter what I sit like to hear from me like “you can do it?” You know, it's not saying it doesn't matter. I think it matters, but to see it in folks who are doing it.

I mean, I've watched that happen. Tina, I watch it happen every day with you and the current fellows. It's just different. To hear it from folks who are not just saying it, but who have lived it and who are doing it. You know, others in the community, there's many formerly incarcerated lead orgs now and leaders who, it just it resonates in a different way for the folks who've actually experienced it. So it's like, we all have our roles to play, you know. And it's been really special to just see just how impactful it is, when you can see it you can be it sort of thing. And that's also I think, where the Legal Revolution is especially inspiring is I mean, there's been jailhouse lawyers, so called jailhouse lawyers, prison litigators forever. But I think the reality is there's been so many denials to have them formally practice in the law. There's been so many barriers to that. But the reality is, once that gets normalized, imagine, imagine the impact that can have in the field when the voices who've been most impacted are now the practitioners, the judges, the lawyers. So I think again, it's one thing to say it, but it's another to hear from someone who's actually lived it. And on a human level, that's probably been the most beautiful part of the work for me is getting to witness like, wow, that's transformation. When that happens. It's pretty magical.

I want to hear a little bit about since you founded All Square in 2016. How has the organization grown and changed? 

Emily: Oh, my goodness.

Just how we do the work, where we fit in the work, how we talk about the work, our sort of pro strategy, everything from the board to the org, everything I think has evolved in so many different ways. I think also just understanding what each arm of the organization does and how, and how it does it, how it doesn't do it has been really important.

There are so many amazing people in this work, so it's like, what is our footprint? What is our DNA? I think just looking at the legal arm versus the restaurant arm, they might look really different. Food truck, restaurant versus law firm and the pipeline, and Legal Revolution as a subsidiary. They look really different, but they're all laddering up to the same thing. Which is trying to do our part in healing the harms. And so I think just clarity on that one has come over seven years.

There's also something about the mission that's really crystallized. Obviously, the name of All Square is so important. And again, it's that like, getting really clear on, there's a million ways to try to change the way criminal records are used and viewed in this country. And these are some of the strategic ways that we're doing it. So I think the the mission itself getting clearer, is definitely another thing. But I mean, I think it's, it's just been beautiful. I'll say quickly, right? We'll get into this, I'm sure. But we started with a restaurant. We then added a food truck right before COVID hit. And when we started with the restaurant and food truck and the fellowship program, there was two tracks. One was entrepreneurship, and one was law. And so I think having that legal track kind of evolved over time into what was the prison to law pipeline. And then that over time evolving into the Legal Revolution, which had a law firm included. Really looking at that piece. 

And I will also say, different from All Square when it was founded… As I mentioned, Bruce Riley and Calvin Duncan, were founding board members, they lived in New Orleans, still live in New Orleans. And were a massive part of shaping and understanding like, how is this going to look? What are its values? What is it going to do? The Legal Revolution was extremely informed by so many different people in Minneapolis, St. Paul. So I think that was also a big part of, we kind of launched in a silo in 2016. I had just moved here, I was new to Minneapolis, I learned a lot I think from that. Legal Revolution, there were so many different community partners, institutional partners, community leaders, formerly incarcerated leaders who came to the table to get that thing off the ground. I mean, we’re also partnering with the prison. That was never something that we intended to do. And if I'll be honest with you, as someone who is a federal attorney, like the government in general, and any public institution, really, for me was never part of the initial vision. But I will say like, it's been really beautiful to see what you can do when you partner with the DOC [Department of Corrections] without, of course, compromising your own values. 

So I think that's also been a part of our DNA. Is, how do we do that responsibly? What are the trade-offs when you do that? When you bring in the private sector, when you bring in law firms, when you bring in… Crystal Farms donates all the cheese and butter for the restaurant, right? When you bring in this multi-sector approach to the work, what does it mean? When you know, where have the missteps been? How have we mis-stepped? And what do we have to trade off when we do that, but what can ultimately be the product of it? So I think that is sort of an evolution, is really trying to understand ourselves. As I mean, truly a company in the social sector. We have a mission, we have a core purpose. At the end of the day, we're also a business. And that's the hardest part I would argue of nonprofit work is you're trying to do amazing, beautiful, socially impactful work while also running a business. So that's been another part in our evolution is how do we do that responsibly? It's really hard. It's really hard to, to run a business with a social mission really responsibly, because you're holding competing interests that don't have to be competing. But given how business and social sort of impact work exists currently, you have to kind of recreate a whole paradigm. And that has not been an easy thing to do.

All Square operates a restaurant, a food truck and a fellowship. Talk to us about these programs. Who were they for? What do they include? 

Aretina: Well, with the restaurant, the food truck, and the fellowship, I want to say that it's for the people. You know, the fellowship is for people that's been negatively impacted by the justice system and the food truck as well, and the restaurant, but at the same time, it's for the community as well. Not only to provide good food, but to educate, to see people in community. Not to be defined by their criminal record, to make people in the community comfortable with people of the same, you know, nature. Just because they have a criminal record doesn't mean that they're different. We get people coming into the restaurant, you know, and they'll sit for hours on end, just enjoying the vibe, enjoying the company of the employees, of the other customers in the restaurant, just because they belong, you know. With the fellowship, they're not only given a support group within themselves, but they're given a whole atmosphere, a whole community of people to support them when they're having things that's going on on the outside coming in, not only that, they have resources that they actually get to have regular connections to that they can access themselves. Or get help accessing to them. The restaurant not only provides the, the wages for our fellows to cipher through but it provides education, it provides skills. You know, All Square and the restaurant and the fellowship focuses on meeting people where they are at. Not everybody's in the same spot, so that’s what makes All Squares special, because they take the time. And put it into each individual and give them what they need at that time. And not rush the process. Everybody's process is different. And with that being said, as Emily directed to earlier, doing the restaurant and the fellowship and colliding them together and meeting everybody where they are on different levels, it's a task in its own, but it's worth it. Once they all come on the other side, in a different spot than where they were before. 

And that spot can look different for everybody. You know, for me, going through my fellowship, the first time, I wasn't at the same spot, everybody was at, you know and I found myself being an asset to everybody that was not at my spot. Not only that, I found that I needed where I needed help at, you know. Sometimes you don't know what you need until you get what you need. And therapy was a big part of that, you know, coming home, and just being back into society, and have to socialize with people. Not only that, have to fellowship with people in a small space, and have to go and work with them in a small kitchen and have to deal with different personalities, different tempers, different, you know. That teaches you as an individual who you are, what you can accept, what you can tolerate, what you cannot, you know. And on your journey on out of here, gives you better tools to cope. Gives you better tools to administer and receive information. You're definitely gonna come in one way and leave another. And depending on where you are at in your life, the restaurant will serve you differently, but it definitely will serve you right. Serve you warm grilled cheese.

Emily: Can you talk a little bit, Tina, just because you leverage it so beautifully, the fellow fund? 

Aretina: Absolutely. So within the fellowship, like I said, there's a lot of resources and great things you get out of it with the therapy. Not only that, with the support and the motivation of the fellowship comes, I did a business course, the NDC [Neighborhood Development Center] business course. And that allowed me to come up with a business plan. Now, entering the fellowship, I lost my brother. It was just a devastating part of my life. You know, I'm a single mom, alone with my kids, I feel like I have nobody and just lost my best friend. 

All Square stepped up in a way that, I'm looking at, I'm like, y’all don't even know me. And y'all just put your big arms around me, and just hugged me in a way that I only felt from God, you know. And that meant something to me. But that gave me the support and the motivation to continue. A lot of times, I felt like I wanted to give up, you know, but that support kept me coming back here, because that's where I felt that love at. And I finished the NDC business course, opening, coming up with a business plan for a lawn care company. And I completed the business plan, and I applied for the fellow fund. Which is for a lot of the fellows at the end of their journey, and I was awarded the full grant to start my business - season round services. It’s just not operational yet, but it is in the works.

Being at All Square, you know, that not only provided the motivation, the stability, a way for me to create generational wealth for my family, and keep my brother's name alive. But it provided me with the opportunity to continue dreaming. You know, when you know that, just because you've been in a position that you've a criminal, you know, to everybody who's looking at you, you're a criminal, you're a felon, you can't do anything. You’re hindered, you're limited. But you can grow, you can grow on your own accord, you can be somebody that whoever you want to be, and you have this organization standing behind you saying, Yep, what you say you want to do, let me show you how to do it, let me help you, not let me do it for you. But because I love the accountability piece that the organization and the program holds you to because it's like, we open the doors for people who want to change, you know, because we don't provide change for anybody, because you have to want it. So we open the doors for people who want to change and, and help scale them through that process. And provide accountability, reliability, dependability, you know, scalability, you know, so we're very flexible around here as well. But with that being said, having that fellow fund offered to me and open for me, when me not only as a single mother, but as a single black mother, that probably never would have been an opportunity for me in any other circumstances. That just, like I said, gave me the opportunity to keep dreaming. There's endless possibilities of what we can do, regardless of where we have been.

And so when you ask Who is it for? Its for the people. You know, the people that's coming through the fellowship, the people that's getting served at the restaurant. Miss Suzanne down the street that comes in, but she lost her husband but never came out, only ordered to go, but now she comes and sits for hours, and she orders the same thing when she comes. Sister so-and-so on up the street, when they come and sit on the patio, because their dog can sit in the sun and have some water. Or just the teenagers that comes through off after school and want to stay here on a Friday night for hours and hang out and listen to some good music and, you know, everybody a part of the community comes in here and they feel the community love. And so it's for everybody, the fellowship, the restaurant, the food truck…

With the fellowship, we're on our fifth cohort, you know, regardless of where they are today, they found a forever home. And I can guarantee if you talk to every last one of them, they are in a different spot that they were in before they started to when they finished the fellowship, and the success of the fellows, I’m telling you, just to be out here in the community, and feel like the heavy weight is off your shoulders, that’s success in itself. 

So you've talked a little bit about debt relief, access to therapy, what are the resources that are available to folks through the fellowship? 

Of course, about the debt relief, the fellow fund, the access to therapy, the access to legal help through their legal revolution, like I said, if you need help getting your license back, or getting fines expunged, or some people have warrants in different counties. Some of those things can be a big barrier on somebody's life, because they don't know how to advocate for themselves, or even where to start. A lot of laws have changed that people don't know about. The Legal Revolution keeps everybody in tune. And we also host events on community days, just to let the public know. And these are free events, so people can come and get in tune. So the fellows can stay informed on the laws that's changed, on the opportunities that's afforded to them. 

Therapy, I'm a big advocate of therapy. The therapy facility that we partner with Creative Kuponya, the type of therapy that they do, it's based around counseling. Sometimes you just need support and motivation, and just that counseling through some situations to get you through. I feel like we're all walking around here with mental health issues that derived from when we were young. And now they're coming up late in life, and we need to understand ourselves to stand our ground. And therapy helps us stand our ground because it gives us more understanding about the people we are. About what we can deal with, what we can tolerate, and what's our end all. And how we can alleviate ourselves from situations that we can't. So I definitely give a big shout out to Creative Kuponya. 

Emily: Yeah, and I'll give a big shout out on that front too, since you're giving out shout outs…

Calvin Duncan again, founding board member, an incredible human, prison litigator, all the things… When All Square was in its founding stages, it was a non-negotiable. He essentially said I'm excited to be part of it, happy to be part of it. But I will tell you, it doesn't matter what model you build. If you don't center wellness and mental health, it won't work. And that was his perspective. And if I'm being honest, I don't know if I, like doesn't matter what I think, but I don't know how much I fully subscribed to that. But I made a commitment to him that it would be front and center. We found Creative Kuponya, when we were opening our doors. They are predominantly black and brown therapists. They do really creative ways of healing. And I will just give a shout out to Calvin that it has been an incredible through-line. And for everyone, right? For everyone at the organization, myself included. We all need support with our mental health and wellness, especially in this work.

And another shout I want to give out, is the, Tina had mentioned the law firm. You know, the Legal Revolution has a big mission that extends beyond civil legal services. A big mission. And what I will say is it's been, I, similar, I had to see it to really fully understand… Of the many things that the law firm does… the first three years of the fellowship, we didn't have an in-house law firm. We were really lucky to be partnering with Mitchell Hamline Law School. Jon Geffen ran an expungement clinic here. And so a lot of our fellows had access to that expungement clinic. Not just having the expungement, but understanding the legal procedure of expungements. But we didn't have the ability to say there's a law firm that exists. And one of its sole purposes is to support you with the civil legal issues that you're having. I knew it would be important. But again, it wasn't until watching the last two cohorts travel through it, it's incredibly impactful because those civil legal services are often really expensive. And there's such a barrier with cost. And so it's just been a real gift to be able to watch that transpire and be able to watch, because you always wonder, right? Are we impacting? Are we part of the solution? Are we helping? Like, are we doing what we're wanting to be doing? And so those are tangible things to be able to say: simple divorces, getting back in custody with their kids, cannabis expungements, regular expungements. You know, all this legal education in general, it's been such a gift to watch, the impact of having the Legal Revolution law firm. It's really been beautiful, I think, to just see. So between the mental health and then the legal side.

As far as other folks doing work in other parts of the country, I couldn't be more of a proponent of if there's a way to build those things in. I think we've been able to see that they, they really matter.

Emily’s reflections on the Legal Revolution underscore the critical role that civil legal services play in supporting individuals during reentry. The impact of having an in-house law firm dedicated to addressing these issues, from expungements to family custody, highlights the tangible benefits that such support can provide. It’s clear that the integration of legal services into All Square’s broader mission has been transformative, not only in easing the financial burden but also in providing meaningful, practical assistance.

With that foundation laid, let’s explore how these efforts fit into the larger picture of criminal justice reform and human rights advancement. Aretina provides insight into how All Square's work extends beyond individual support to a broader, systemic impact. Her perspective sheds light on how All Square’s mission to provide continuous, comprehensive support influences the wider community and contributes to the ongoing fight for justice and human rights.

Aretina: All Square’s doing the work, you know, it's not just one group, or one person, it's a revolving door. So we're not only providing the help for this community, but for people who need it around the community, outside of the community. We're not only doing the work and standing behind our mission, but we're spreading the word. We're connecting with other organizations, we're connected with other facilities that's like-minded and doing like-work. We're getting into the DOC [Department of Corrections]. We're getting into the prisons. We're actually doing the work. So on a broader scale of it, I know it’s one thing to spread the word and, you know, sell grilled cheese sandwiches and help one group. But when your work doesn't stop, you know, when you're helping not only one group, when you're helping revolving doors and ciphering people through the community, and it's nonstop? That is the broader scale of it. We're out here. We're out here, we're making a noise. We're making a ripple, we're making an effect and that is a stamp on human rights here in our community alone, because it's not that we're only being affected, that we've only got something to say, but we're doing something about it. 

What is the problem with using the language of Second Chance employment, and we talk about healing the harms of the criminal justice system? 

Emily: The use of second chances only centers, folks who have not, you know, maybe had a misstep in the criminal space. And it doesn't talk about the systems that may have led to it. When we first started, I was so averse to second chances, because I also think it can be anchored in racism, and again, this sort of Saviorism. So, I was so opposed to using it at all. But then I also heard feedback from staff and fellows who had navigated this system saying, you know, I understand why you're distancing, but also like, that is part of my journey. This is a second chance, this is something that's important for me to use that language. And so I think that's where we found that balance of in our values, we have second chances and reparations. Right in that, yes, there might be space, and it might be really important for someone to be able to identify for themselves, a second chance was really important, and that language might make perfect sense for them. We want to honor that. And we want to talk about reparative measures that, you know, part of opening the restaurant and only employing folks who have records was to say, different than what's happening like, which is you have a record and we're going to deny you employment, we're only going to employ folks right, similar with the legal system of saying it's a reparative program to be able to say those who've been most impacted by the law, we should invest in making sure that they have an opportunity to have formalized pathways into the law. Right? That's a reparative move that we are doing intentionally in community to try to be part of… Sometimes it's not enough to just say, “we're sorry, we're sorry that the criminal system was so flawed. We're sorry that there was disparate sentencing measures and all sorts of racialized practices inherent in the legal system, the last, you know, 40, 50, 60 years. We're just going to change it,” right? Sometimes I think reparative measures are important. 

So I think that's the last thing I'll say is, it's been helpful for me anyway, to make space for both. So with second chances, and reparations has been really important. I think, also, another core value for us is personal, it ties together personal accountability and systems accountability. When you only talk about one, I would argue, and I invite folks to disagree with me on this, but… When you only talk about systems accountability, I think it also can get a little bit imbalanced. But when you only talk about personal accountability, you're also missing out on the dominant culture and how it’s perpetuated a lot of these issues. So I think when you combine them, and you don't have to choose, but we're, we make space to talk about both and hold them both together, I would argue that that is when the healing is most probable, because you're making space for all of it to exist instead of having to choose one or the other…

And again, something we've talked about as an org, because if we have these really important core values, what does it mean? How is it showing up in how we operate? Do all of our staff know that? If they don't, we need to come together and get clear on that, right? Because those are some bold values that we're holding out. I know, I feel pretty clear in them. But I definitely have, have really appreciated opportunities to like, oh, wow, does everyone feel clear on why we say these things? What does it mean to have “black lives matter” in our value statement? So I think that we've also, we have opportunities internally as well, to get clear across the org on “here's why we say these things and what they mean. And how they're showing up and how we practice too.” So you know, work in progress on that front.

You talked about the fact that this is the fourth cohort, (Aretina) we're in the fifth cohort. (Grace) Fifth cohort. So how would you sort of describe the changes that have occurred to the program and its successes so far?

Emily: Some of this precedes Tina, Tina came in the fourth cohort. So the three prior, one way that I know that the fellowship has really changed and evolved is again, just trying to understand how are we doing this responsibly? Where are we not? What can we change? And I think one thing that we're doing now is a few things. I think we had a stronger sort of reentry component. Clearly we're in reentry work, and that folks have come home and are working here. But we also want to be clear about the experts that we have here. And I think that there are other folks in community who are doing really sort of reentry-specific work. That it was really important for us to sort of pivot from that, because that's not what we're doing. But what I will say is on the restaurant side, we used to have... The fellowship was heavily anchored in entrepreneurship. Tina, obviously leveraged that with the NDC [Neighborhood Development Center] course. It is not to say we're not still wanting to support folks who really want to focus on a side hustle or a small business. But our sort of lab, our Social Engine, if you will, similar to sort of the law firm on the Legal Revolution side, is a restaurant. We have a restaurant and a food truck, we don't have a school of business. And again, wanting to make sure that we're doing right by the folks who are traveling through here, like we want to make sure that what we say we have and can offer we can fully do and execute on. And so that's where I think this year, the fellowship team got a lot clearer with folks on the front end of the fellowship. You don't have to want to be in restaurant work forever. But this is what we have to offer. This is the engine that we have. We really want to start developing employment pathways with other values-aligned restaurants. Because at the end of the day, as we've heard in feedback, right? Folks are spending a lot of time in the restaurant. So we have those other ancillary I would argue very imperative, things like the law firm, the legal support, the therapy, but I think we've really started to also lean into like, the restaurant is the focus. And the restaurant is this thing that we love. And I think Tina does an amazing job at making it so much more than a restaurant job. You know, this is a place where community comes in and breaks bread in a real way.

So I think that that's been really powerful to see her kind of take ownership of that. It's not just a restaurant, but we also don't want to be something that we're not. So I think those have been the opportunities for growth for the fellowship is again, like how do we just do this in the best way? Also, knowing, we can't and will never be the end all, be all, for anyone. At the end of the day, we are a step along the way in people's journeys. We’re so lucky for that. How do we make that year really count and be really honest about the fact that we aren't, we aren't here to completely uproot and change and translate. That's not something we are capable of doing. But we do want to be a really important step along your journey and help in all the ways that we can.

I want to start talking about another arm of All Square’s work, turning to The Legal Revolution. So can we get an introduction to the legal revolution? We talked about it? What is it? And how does it come about within All Square?

Emily: Yeah, I mean, the Legal Revolution at its highest form is a movement to transform the law through I think several legal initiatives that center racial equity. That center wellness and, and sort of the therapy side of course, wellness in the law. And most importantly, center, you know, folks who've been the most impacted by the law. It came about, in I think like most things with All Square in a nonlinear way. I'll speak for me, and I think what I appreciate about The Legal Revolution is, all the different folks who were involved in getting off the ground, I think have their own perspective of how sort of The Legal Revolution has existed.

When I was in New Orleans, I was really lucky to know and love and learn from Bruce Riley, Herman Wallace, and Albert Woodfox, two of the three members of the Angola three, who were in solitary confinement for over 40 years. Bruce Riley, different situation out east, but all three incredible prison litigators, incredible legal minds. I'll be the first to own my own truth that when I met them, I didn't know that there were folks in prison studying law. That there were folks in prison mastering the law. I think I had my own biases about what it looked like to be in prison. And I'm sad to say that, but it is my truth. And so it was incredible to be traveling through law school trying to learn the law from this formal legal institution, which I appreciated, Loyola Law. Shout out to my alma mater, but to get to understand why folks are learning the law and how they're learning the law and understanding the mastery of the law from the inside. And then of course, understanding their, like, legal perspectives of like, “I know, you might think this, but here's what we know, based on our lived experience, based on being inside, based on being sort of at the other end of this.” That changed everything. So I think the initial heartbeat for me of The Legal Revolution started there. And there was always that, like, how do we become a part of - I'm glad to be an attorney - but how do we become a part of making sure more of those voices are not just studying the law and mastering it. But how do we become part of formalizing this happening on the regular and normalizing it as well. 

Prison to law pipeline was the first seed of it, and that was for me, sort of started out with our legal track in the fellowship. At that time, you know, it was 2020. All Square had been operational a little over two years. And I think it was time to sort of just start exploring quietly, like, what could this legal track be? It kind of deserves its own energy. It deserves its own attention. So I had reached out to our current board chair, Eli Daris, to say, “hey, All Square has this like prison to law pipeline, I think it could be something.” At that time to be true, in my brain, it was purely formerly incarcerated. We were not going to be rolling this out in the prisons. But the seeds of it had started, and he and a current other board member, Jesse, had come to the restaurant and we had just the first conversation about what could it look like to try to leverage all of our connections in the legal arena? Eli is someone who had studied the law on the inside and used the law to secure his own freedom. How do we do this? Like, what could it look like? What would it be? 

And then two things happened: COVID hit, and George Floyd was executed. And those things all culminated in such a different like… One, for the first time in history, people were attending law school remotely. It had never happened before the American Bar Association had never allowed that before. And so all of a sudden, it allowed us to dream in a bigger way. And saying, you know, if you could attend Mitchell Hamline Law School from Seattle, why can't you attend from Shakopee prison? And so that was I think when we realized that that maybe is something that we could roll out, the prison to law pipeline, in the prisons. You know, Kevin Reese of Until We Are All Free was a massive part of this. Creative Kuponya was a massive part of this. Mary Fenske with North Hennepin paralegal school. Jon Geffen. So many different people came to the table. Youth Lens to say like, “all right, how would we get the buy-in?” How would other board members, Perry Moriearty. I could name a million people who were so instrumental in “how do we get the buy-in to actually do this? And is there a universe where we can roll this out in the prisons?” And once we realized that Commissioner Paul Schnell, and the Dean of Mitchell Hamline Law School and the head of North Hennepin paralegal school were all going to say yes to this, that's when I think The Legal Revolution language came to be. Because we knew that  it had never happened in the history of the country. And so that piece, I think, was so important.

And John Goeppinger who is the co-founder of The Legal Revolution, was the one who was like, you know, if we're going to do this similar to the restaurant, and the fellowship, like we should have a law firm. Like if we're going to do this responsibly, what are we going to do about that part, right? We don't know that we can rely on private law firms to play a role in this. We need to first be able to prototype it.

So it was all really nonlinear, like I said. And how to get it off the ground, where it would live, would it live under All Square, would it not? Like there was a million conversations about how to get this thing into the world.  

And it was nuanced. And it was honestly for me, one of the most beautiful chapters, and exciting chapters, especially as we realized that it was actually going to start coming into fruition.

And then when George Floyd was executed, it just changed the sense of urgency. I think, it’s just, it’s hard to build at the speed of urgency. But what I will say is I think everybody knew, the time is right now. There are people willing to say yes to this thing that probably would have never have said yes before. We have to get it off the ground. The most important thing was getting the prison to law pipeline started.

With that renewed focus on urgency and transformation, let's turn to Diamond Fletcher, the Prison to Law Pipeline Coordinator. Diamond sheds light on how this innovative *new tactic* is bringing legal education into prisons and supporting incarcerated individuals in pursuing law careers. Her insights into the program's innovative approach and partnerships illustrate the powerful steps being taken to create opportunities for those who are often left behind.

Diamond: The prison to law pipeline is us putting legal education back in prisons. We have two of the first in the country, incarcerated individuals, who are attending law school. Shout-out Mitchell Hamline School of Law. And we have a partnership with North Hennepin Community College. Shout-out to Mary Fenske, where we have had a graduated cohort of five paralegals. And we have a current cohort of seven paralegals that will finish in spring of 2025.

To me, it’s so important because of the quality of education that we’re giving. I think we go into facilities and people have access to the basics, your GED, maybe a bachelor's degree. I know, it’s expedited how long it would take you to get the bachelor's degree. It used to be like 12 years, so you would have to wait for the classes you need to come to your facility for you to get your degree. So now we’ve seen lots of other colleges come into these facilities and expediting their process. Now you can really get your bachelors in 4 years like people on the outside. But then you finish your bachelors and then what? You have this time, you have the knowledge, you want to do something. We start with the basics. You have your bachelor's degree, great. Do you want to be an attorney? Cool, let’s get you tested. Let’s do the LSAT. We give out free tests to anybody who wants to try and go to law school. Our organization provides the study materials. You get the score. Then we’re working on your application. 

Emily: John Goeppinger had brought to us when we were originally kind of coming up with the like, how do you persuade folks that this is going to be a beautiful model, and that it's really important. And one of the things that we had talked a lot about was that sort of lived experience concordance, right? So, I think, Jon, the article he had mentioned, was like, when your medical practitioner looks like you, has lived experience similar to you, the medical results are different. And I think it's important for all of us, right? I'm a queer woman. And so I know what it's like to have seen other queer women doing things that are like, wow, if they can do it, I can do it, right? Including just like living in my full humanity. And so I think that that's something that we're already starting to see.

I will never forget, the first time I watched Bruce Riley and Calvin Duncan give legal [advice], I was like, I don't care how good of an attorney I ever am, if I'm going to be in this work, and I'm engaging in this space, my words, and my legal expertise – I'm not saying it's not doesn't have value. The reality is we've never lived some of the things that the folks that we get to invest in have lived. And it also extends into the restaurant, right? Like our fellows see that the folks who are, are in leadership, they've also lived through some stuff. They've lived, what they're traveling through, and it creates not only, I think, a different set of like a level of buy in. But it's also just the impact of the results, I think really, look really different.

What’s sort of the long-term vision for how this could transform our practice of law?

Diamond: What's revolutionary about this is everything. For you to see someone, to see that I'm in law school, I've never had any family members incarcerated, any friends incarcerated. This is just something that I don't know, like, I'm not involved in this world. But I'm seeing people who don't look like me, who aren't in the same space as me, in the same place as me. And that's important to know that people like that deserve to be in these places and spaces. And they have a right to be.

Emily: I think in 10, 15 years, whatever the timeline might be, is we have a legal discipline that wholly represents the people. At this point, and let me be very clear, this is not me saying that folks who don't have formal JDs or paralegal degrees, who know the law,  aren't adding incredible value. But the reality is, folks who've learned a lot on the inside and come home and try to practice on the outside could go back to prison for trying to practice law in an unauthorized fashion, right? So, what we know is that for those who do want to get onto the bench, for those who do want to be at law firms, who do want to formally practice, that's not happening. And the result of that is, the one segment of the population that needs to be inherently involved and centered in the law has not historically been. So we are literally moving in a discipline that is missing the voices that are most important. 

Especially given the law relates to liberty. You know, it's different in other fields. I mean, there's some like medicine right where it's life and death too, right? When you are talking about people's liberty, we have a whole discipline that has never really been wholly representative. And there are systems in place to make sure it stays that way. And so I think that if we can be a part of building relationships, and healing systems to create a legal discipline that's wholly representative, I know I can feel good about practicing law in a way that I can't right now. We have a really flawed legal discipline. And part of that, not that those who've been impacted should have to bear the burden of healing the system, but for those who want to, we desperately need them in our profession. And I think that that, to me is like, what we fight for on The Legal Revolution side every day is a field that actually is representative of the people.

And that is a core value in the law is like, again, what we've been promised. Right? But what we know is that women, people of color, like, it's never been wholly representative since the founding days, right? We're still trying to create the world where that is actually true. And we can actually be proud of our Constitution.

Like, the law is such an exclusionary discipline. It has historically been very exclusionary, it has historically been very elitist. It has historically been very white. Yet it affects all of us. So what I love about The Legal Revolution is it's also it's inviting people in. To say like, listen, this is all just like you said. I might not understand the statute, but that's because we need training and how to. I needed training in understanding statues. At the end of the day, anyone can learn it. But you know, the language of the law is something that can be used as an inclusionary tool, not an exclusionary one. And again, it goes back to the human rights. Right, like, how was it that we're excluded from something that impacts our daily lives? And how do we create a field that flips that and imagine if we could be proud of our legal system and trust our legal system.

Diamond: I think that knowledge is something that when you have it, no one can take it away from you. And in a system where they take literally everything away from you, like we're equipping people with the knowledge that you have. No one can take this from you.

In the breadth of this work, are there successes or things we haven't talked about yet that any of you would like to highlight? 

Diamond: Let's start with, I want to touch on our donors. I always feel like it's amazing to see people who, like believe in this. They don't, they haven't experienced it, like they just hear about us and like they donate. Like, seeing that pool grow is just like so special to me, like people literally, like hear us talking about this. They believe in it, and they want to donate to it. And you guys can donate too, whoever’s listening, you guys can also donate.

Emily: Yeah, I mean, I think it's, at the end of the day, the one thing that will be a forever-reality and something I look forward to try to continue to examine and understand is that nonprofits are businesses. Definitely shout-out to the folks who fund not just our work, but other people's work, because running a business is hard to imagine if on top of it, you had to make sure that you had social impact? Like in my mind, we should have twice the funding of a regular business. And instead we have maybe 100th, depending right? It's 7% of nonprofits across the country ever reach a million dollars in operating budgets. That's not because there's not folks out there hustling every day. But it's because like you, you're running a business on top of trying to do the work. 

And so I would say for those who are interested in wanting to support I think it's just when you're talking to folks wanting to support their work understand, that it's in my opinion, right? And this isn't necessarily for All Square but if you're thinking $100, double it. If you're thinking $1000, double it. If you're thinking $50,000, double it. It is, again, in my opinion, folks in this work should be paid twice than the private sector. And instead, it's, it couldn't be the opposite. So I think part of another thing that we're trying to do is to really start to challenge that and challenge the sort of charity angle of this. This is the hardest work in the world. And it deserves the most investment and the most support. And I've been thankful to start to see some of those dynamics change in philanthropy, but I think we still have a long way to go.

Thank you for joining us for this episode of Human Rights Chat by New Tactics in Human Rights. We extend our heartfelt gratitude to Emily Hunt Turner, Aretina Williams, and Diamond Fletcher for sharing their powerful insights and stories with us. A special thank you to the staff and board of directors at All Square for their remarkable work in advancing justice and supporting those impacted by the criminal legal system. 

We also want to acknowledge Sydney Stead for her efforts in communication and coordination of this episode, and Grace McDonough for interviewing. 

For more information about All Square and how you can support their important work, visit allsquarempls.com Don’t forget to check out other episodes of Human Rights Chat on Spotify or SoundCloud, and explore the New Tactics library of over 265 innovative human rights tactics for change at newtactics.org

Thank you for listening, and we look forward to bringing you more Human Rights chat conversations that inspire and equip activists to change the world.